HTC respond to HTCClassAction
January 23rd, 2008
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I'm sure that many of you are aware of the complaint being raised to HTC regarding the alleged lack of video drivers included on the latest HTC devices. For those of you not familiar, the allegation is that HTC have deliberately nobbled the newer devices by not including the video drivers that are necessary to make the devices work to their full potential and lots of people are complaining that their new HTC phone underperforms when compared to two year old devices of a lower spec.
The complaint being managed by htcclassaction.org starts as follows:
What is this all about?
The latest SmartPhone and PocketPC devices from HTC (High Tech Computing) are supposed to be the most powerful devices on the market. And in theory, they are indeed real powerhouses of mobile technology.
There's a catch though: HTC has neglected to include the necessary drivers needed for the devices to come to their full potential.
What does this mean?
This means our really expensive HTC phones (the TyTN II is about $700) are grossly underperforming. In fact, in many things, these devices operate even slower than HTC's (and competitors') two years older models - see the videos under navigation for demonstrations, especially the TomTom video (TyTN II vs Magician) is a terrific example.
The drivers (small pieces of software that govern your device's hardware) in question are responsible for all drawing operations. This means absolutely everything having anything to do with putting something on your screen is affected. This includes normal programs, video playback, games, taking pictures, etcetera. If it's on your screen, it's affected. This makes the devices feel really slow and unresponsive. For more details about this, see the Drivers in detail page.
Yesterday, HTC gave an official response to the complaint:
In response to recent customer complaints about poor video performance on HTC devices based on the latest Qualcomm MSM7xxx chipsets, HTC is providing the following statement.
HTC is committed to delivering a portfolio of devices that offer a wide variety of communication, connectivity and entertainment functionality. HTC does not offer dedicated or optimized multimedia devices and can confirm that its Qualcomm MSM7xxx-based devices do not use ATI’s Imageon video acceleration hardware.
HTC believes the overall value of its devices based on their combination of functionality and connectivity exceeds their ability to play or render high-resolution video. These devices do still provide a rich multimedia experience comparable to that of most smart phones and enable a variety of audio and video file formats.
HTC values its customers and the overall online community of mobile device enthusiasts and fans. HTC plans to include video acceleration hardware in future video-centric devices that will enable high-resolution video support.
Personally, I am happy with my TyTN II, I've never really noticed it being slow or unresponsive. However, if there is something that can be done to make it perform much better then I'd be really pleased to see it!
There seem to be a number of unofficial responses from HTC too and reading through the points raised on HTCClassAction, make a good case. So why not head over to HTCClassAction.org and make up your own mind... I'd love to hear your opinion!
Posted by: Matt
[Post tag(s): smartphone blog, Pocket PC blog, Tracy & Matt, HTC, HTCClassAction, ATI Imageon]
Comments, Pingbacks:
Comment from: becky [Visitor] · http://www.spritesandbites.net
I think if the chip is there and HTC are not providing the drivers to utilise it, then they will have a reason for doing so. Generally companies do not disable features just because they want to, there will be a specific reason. Maybe that the enhancements the video drivers bring actually cause more problems than without them. Perhaps they cause the battery to drain quickly or whatever.
I am sure HTC do not do these things out of spite.
I am sure HTC do not do these things out of spite.
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23/01/08 @ 08:30
Comment from: Matt [Member] 
· www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/blogs
· www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/blogs
I agree with you but would rather HTC come out and say why rather than some wooly excuse about the Qualcomm chipset not using the ATI video hardware. Maybe it's not being used but it is there!
If I bought a PC I would expect to get drivers for all the hardware.
Do I think there is a case for class action? Probably not but at the same time I would like to know the real reason why my TyTN II isn't reaching its potential.
Matt
If I bought a PC I would expect to get drivers for all the hardware.
Do I think there is a case for class action? Probably not but at the same time I would like to know the real reason why my TyTN II isn't reaching its potential.
Matt
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23/01/08 @ 08:40
Comment from: Mark (Reviewer) [Member] · http://www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/reviews
· http://www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/reviews
There is no case. I absolutely guarantee that even though 1) america is full of lawsuit happy morons and 2) I don't study law.
Its obvious HTC are doing nothing wrong legally.
I too, however, wish they would just give us the real reason.
Its obvious HTC are doing nothing wrong legally.
I too, however, wish they would just give us the real reason.
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23/01/08 @ 08:56
Comment from: becky [Visitor] · http://www.spritesandbites.net
Oh don't get me wrong, if this is the case then HTC should just come out and say so and not beat around the bush with different excuses. This is the trouble with big organisations, the monkeys never know what the organ grinders are doing and vice versa.
Without a clear and honest statement, it will just make them look like they are trying to deceive people and that is definitely no good for customer relations.
My plan today was to go to town after work and get this phone on an orange contract. Should I wait? I really like this phone, but I do not want to go from one sluggish phone (Fujitsu Loox T830) to another sluggish phone with issues. Please put my mind at rest that this phone is worthy of my money :)
Without a clear and honest statement, it will just make them look like they are trying to deceive people and that is definitely no good for customer relations.
My plan today was to go to town after work and get this phone on an orange contract. Should I wait? I really like this phone, but I do not want to go from one sluggish phone (Fujitsu Loox T830) to another sluggish phone with issues. Please put my mind at rest that this phone is worthy of my money :)
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23/01/08 @ 09:31
Comment from: Paul [Visitor]
You say you are happy with your TyTN II but when you slide out the keyboard, don't tell me you don't find it slightly frustrating that you have to wait a second or three before the screen re-renders in landscape mode. That's what we're talking about here -- it should be instant, and it could be with the right graphics support. I like my TyTN II, but I don't love it, and this is why.
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23/01/08 @ 12:54
Comment from: Mark (Reviewer) [Member] · http://www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/reviews
· http://www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/reviews
Paul,
I'm not arguing about that point - you are right, and I agree with you. However, if HTC choose not to enable it - then more fool them. It doesn't give you the right to legal action against them though.
I'm not arguing about that point - you are right, and I agree with you. However, if HTC choose not to enable it - then more fool them. It doesn't give you the right to legal action against them though.
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23/01/08 @ 14:21
Comment from: Paul [Visitor]
Agreed Matt -- no right to sue, and no grounds, either. But maybe the people behind that website understand that, and are just using talk of a class action suit to add a little sensation and get the attention of the blogosphere, then the tech press (happened already -- The Register) and then, finally, HTC, so that HTC is under pressure to say something. If that was their goal, then it's been somewhat successful (although HTC has been speaking in riddles).
I was more commenting in response to your saying that you're happy with your TyTN II and haven't noticed it being slow and unresponsive. Since almost everything one frequently does with a device like that involves stuff happening on the screen, slow rendering makes the device slow, even if the underlying computations are, apart from the graphics, happening fast. The EXPERIENCE is slow. And that is, indeed, my experience.
And so I'd rather have HTC see Matt of Tracy and Matt fame say that he ISN'T happy with the speed of his TyTN II -- that might give another little push in the right direction. :)
I was more commenting in response to your saying that you're happy with your TyTN II and haven't noticed it being slow and unresponsive. Since almost everything one frequently does with a device like that involves stuff happening on the screen, slow rendering makes the device slow, even if the underlying computations are, apart from the graphics, happening fast. The EXPERIENCE is slow. And that is, indeed, my experience.
And so I'd rather have HTC see Matt of Tracy and Matt fame say that he ISN'T happy with the speed of his TyTN II -- that might give another little push in the right direction. :)
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23/01/08 @ 16:49
Comment from: Mark (Reviewer) [Member] · http://www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/reviews
· http://www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/reviews
Ahh - just to point out, I'm Mark, and I review devices here. Matt is the co-owner and posts lots of news, unboxings and reviews. He has a tytn II, I do not.
Not sure if you were responding to me, or Matt? hehe.
Not sure if you were responding to me, or Matt? hehe.
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23/01/08 @ 17:20
Comment from: Paul [Visitor]
I thought I was talking to the author of the post, who I thought was Matt. But I'm okay with Mark too, or Luke or John for that matter :)
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23/01/08 @ 18:15
Comment from: Phil [Visitor]
HTC have talked up their new range of devices, yet the main part of the device we interface with, the display responds slower then their older devices.
HTC haven't included the driver because it costs them money to do so, yet it hasn't stopped them talking up the capabilities of their new devices. Manufacturers that treat customer's like idiots will only lose out in the end. They can't get away with fobbing off individuals when the Internet is able to tell the full story. The newer devices are suppose to be an upgrade to existing models, yet perform worse while commanding a price premium for being the latest.
We have no issues with the fact the Qualcomm chips support 8 mega pixel cameras yet we only have 3, as this is clearing in the specification. HTC have kept very quiet though where their devices fall very short of the capabilities of the chip they use, yet were quite happy piggy backing on Qualcomm’s marketing and PR surrounding those chips, where Qualcomm quite rightly bestowed the virtues of their accelerated hardware for graphics and multimedia. HTC will have known full well that their customers would associate all the features of the chip as being available on the new HTC models. Graphic acceleration in hardware is standard on all PC’s and multimedia devices today that no one would have expected this to be left off HTC’s flagship devices.
The demo of the Tom Tom running on the HTC Tytn II compared to an older device clearly show how badly the device suffers without driver support.
HTC haven't included the driver because it costs them money to do so, yet it hasn't stopped them talking up the capabilities of their new devices. Manufacturers that treat customer's like idiots will only lose out in the end. They can't get away with fobbing off individuals when the Internet is able to tell the full story. The newer devices are suppose to be an upgrade to existing models, yet perform worse while commanding a price premium for being the latest.
We have no issues with the fact the Qualcomm chips support 8 mega pixel cameras yet we only have 3, as this is clearing in the specification. HTC have kept very quiet though where their devices fall very short of the capabilities of the chip they use, yet were quite happy piggy backing on Qualcomm’s marketing and PR surrounding those chips, where Qualcomm quite rightly bestowed the virtues of their accelerated hardware for graphics and multimedia. HTC will have known full well that their customers would associate all the features of the chip as being available on the new HTC models. Graphic acceleration in hardware is standard on all PC’s and multimedia devices today that no one would have expected this to be left off HTC’s flagship devices.
The demo of the Tom Tom running on the HTC Tytn II compared to an older device clearly show how badly the device suffers without driver support.
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23/01/08 @ 21:58
Comment from: Ahmad [Visitor]
for me the graphics issue was not important as well, meanwhile when i buy new device like tytnll i expect the new device to perform better or at least same performance as the old one.i was going to buy the tytnll but the last statement of the HTC made me change my mind. i think they turn things against themselves saying their devices are not intended for certain usage of Video while they are true about it they never stated why they did not kept the good performance of the old devices ,which i believe also was not intended multimedia ,in the new highly advanced and pricey devices
Ahmad
Ahmad
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23/01/08 @ 23:02
Comment from: Nishy [Visitor]
As a user of a range of excellent Sony Clies dating back to NX90-UX50, and Palm Treo 650, I find the HTC's video and camera performance to be distinctly poor and very frustrating [I almost dislike using this HTC function]. (In that respect Matt's satisfaction is a surprise to me!) The TyTN II's camera is kind of oversensitive to light, hard to use (to focus and take the pic takes ages), offers delayed "live views" with ghost trails, and generally pretty awful for both video and photo uses (and I am not a highly demanding user). All the other cameras in Sony/Palm were lesser spec (only VGA and not upto 3MP!) but far better in practical everyday pic quality and much easier to use on the fly. The only camera function I appreciate in the TyTN II is the WorldCard Mobile business card scanner...which works pretty well!
In all other respects this is a great phone/PDA, especially in functionality and productivity. Speed of processing (and my phone is fairly crammed with software)is generally quite good too - to answer someone's query. So I really had hoped HTC would do something about this camera/video problem as it is the worst single problem for this device. It seems not, and I still unclear why [HTC explanations are rather foggy] - a real let-down for a super piece of hardware.
Can some third party please offer us a fix, even unofficial? I'd definitely pay for it.
Nishy
Sri Lanka
In all other respects this is a great phone/PDA, especially in functionality and productivity. Speed of processing (and my phone is fairly crammed with software)is generally quite good too - to answer someone's query. So I really had hoped HTC would do something about this camera/video problem as it is the worst single problem for this device. It seems not, and I still unclear why [HTC explanations are rather foggy] - a real let-down for a super piece of hardware.
Can some third party please offer us a fix, even unofficial? I'd definitely pay for it.
Nishy
Sri Lanka
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25/01/08 @ 05:59
Comment from: Matt [Member] · www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/blogs
· www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/blogs
I rarely use the camera on my TyTN II, but the times that I do I've always been pretty happy with the results.
I guess that your level of frustration with a TyTN II (or any other device) depends on how much you use it and what you use it for.
Matt
I guess that your level of frustration with a TyTN II (or any other device) depends on how much you use it and what you use it for.
Matt
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25/01/08 @ 06:12
Comment from: Nishy [Visitor]
Re. Tom Tom's performance as per Phil's comment, I personally used in Austria the TyTN II's GPS function with both the bundled and extra downloaded Western Europe maps and I was very satisfied with the phone's performance.
Nishy
Sri Lanka
Nishy
Sri Lanka
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25/01/08 @ 06:28
Comment from: Nishy [Visitor]
Matt : my camera use is just routine odd family pics and other very ordinary and occasional stuff like buying a cupboard...(same things as for all the other phones). But I am [sadly] dissatisfied!
Nishy.
Nishy.
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25/01/08 @ 06:30
Comment from: Colin [Visitor]
Maybe this HTC issue is the reason why the O2 Xda Orbit2 disappeared from O2's website a week or so ago despite the fact it's in their brochure ????? See ..... http://www.htcclassaction.org/devices.php
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28/01/08 @ 22:03
Comment from: macker1973 [Visitor]
I have to pull the reviewer up on the review of the Kaiser and say I think it was at least inaccurate.
"Finally, in order to test the horsepower of the TyTN II I installed The Core Pocket Media Player and watched a few sample videos. What amazed me here is that I was able to put a video clip on the internal storage memory of the device that was NOT optimised for pocket PC and despite the DivX video being 640 x 320 it played back without so much of a stutter! This is something that I’ve never been able to do on any other device."
hmmm to tell you the truth its a bit choppy on mine.
Lets try and leave the windows mobile or HTC glasses off next time your doing a review. I like many others have sold of my Kaiser since its a poor user experience and purchased an iphone. I have lost a lot of features such as gps, hardware keyboard etc however at least the UI is responsive. HTCs response to the driver issue in my opinion is unacceptable and I will not buy another HTC device. The iphone is on its 3rd update in a year where most user issues have been addressed, not all but most.
Most reviewers have been using preproduction devices for reviewing though there is no mention or suggestion of that on this web site. That makes me very suspicious considering that not one review I read mentioned the slugish and poor performance of the Kaiser.
"Finally, in order to test the horsepower of the TyTN II I installed The Core Pocket Media Player and watched a few sample videos. What amazed me here is that I was able to put a video clip on the internal storage memory of the device that was NOT optimised for pocket PC and despite the DivX video being 640 x 320 it played back without so much of a stutter! This is something that I’ve never been able to do on any other device."
hmmm to tell you the truth its a bit choppy on mine.
Lets try and leave the windows mobile or HTC glasses off next time your doing a review. I like many others have sold of my Kaiser since its a poor user experience and purchased an iphone. I have lost a lot of features such as gps, hardware keyboard etc however at least the UI is responsive. HTCs response to the driver issue in my opinion is unacceptable and I will not buy another HTC device. The iphone is on its 3rd update in a year where most user issues have been addressed, not all but most.
Most reviewers have been using preproduction devices for reviewing though there is no mention or suggestion of that on this web site. That makes me very suspicious considering that not one review I read mentioned the slugish and poor performance of the Kaiser.
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31/01/08 @ 09:22
Comment from: Matt [Member] · www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/blogs
· www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/blogs
I have two HTC TyTN II's - both of them are full retail units.
I can only speak how I find, and I really dont have a problem with the speed of the device. I have a couple of videos on there and they playback smoothly.
I know that other people are saying that they have problems with the performance but you have to realise that I reviewed the TyTN II when it was new and before anyone else pretty much.
We're independent of any manufacturer and I'd like to think that we give an unbiased view and we have been pretty critical of some devices lately.
I've had the TyTN II for months, use it every day and still enjoy using it. I am a light user though so perhaps this is why I haven't noticed the issues as much as others?
I can only speak how I find, and I really dont have a problem with the speed of the device. I have a couple of videos on there and they playback smoothly.
I know that other people are saying that they have problems with the performance but you have to realise that I reviewed the TyTN II when it was new and before anyone else pretty much.
We're independent of any manufacturer and I'd like to think that we give an unbiased view and we have been pretty critical of some devices lately.
I've had the TyTN II for months, use it every day and still enjoy using it. I am a light user though so perhaps this is why I haven't noticed the issues as much as others?
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31/01/08 @ 09:55
Comment from: Dave [Visitor]
macker1973 I suggest you send your Kaiser back, since it is clearly faulty, or you are talking out of your backside. The videos issues you describe don't exist, but even if they did, they wouldn't be connected to the Class Action issue anyway. This site appears to be anti-HTC if anything, and I've read quite a few reviews of both HTC and none HTC devices that have been critical. Sorry but your comments are very unfair in my view.
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31/01/08 @ 10:02
Comment from: macker1973 [Visitor]
I did notice Matt that your review was not on a preproduction model though most are especially the large, more popular sites and I will now take all those with a pinch of salt from now on. I know a few guys who have them and they are all seeing the same sluggish behavior. The most annoying one for me is entering the pin code to when turning the phone on where it takes more than just a few seconds from when the screen is shown to when you can actually enter the pin on the touch screen. I have seen this issue on three different Kaisers now so it was not just my phone.
Dave, I have sold my Kaiser on ebay and purchased an iPhone already, as have others I noticed. Sure I lose the GPS, hardware keyboard etc but at least I have a very responsive ui which does not frustrate like the Kaiser. Apple at least make some response and take action on consumer issues with 3 updates adding customer requests and fixes in less than a year. Its expected for a device to have issues so manufacturer response should always be considered. As for the video issue the fact is there is no hardware acceleration for video playback. Even CorePlayer to a degree acknowledge the issue when the will release a new version of their player which uses QTV to improve the video playback on that chipset. Now over 8000 people have signed the petition many commenting on the performance issues so to simply write all those consumers off as HTC haters is weak at best. If they hated HTC so much they would never have purchased a HTC device.
While its unlikely any reviewer will ever admit to being hasty in their reviews the fact stands that large numbers of HTC customers are experiencing issues with poor performance so clearly something went wrong when not one review I have seen actually picked up on the issue. The fact is HTC admit the Kaiser has no hardware accelerated graphics. Again some websites I am suspicious off using preproduction devices (certainly not this one) others I believe where just over eager when they got the device instead of actually using the for a month before doing a review. Maybe even the lack of a set structure for doing a review, eg compare video playback, boot up times, screen response etc.
Dave, I have sold my Kaiser on ebay and purchased an iPhone already, as have others I noticed. Sure I lose the GPS, hardware keyboard etc but at least I have a very responsive ui which does not frustrate like the Kaiser. Apple at least make some response and take action on consumer issues with 3 updates adding customer requests and fixes in less than a year. Its expected for a device to have issues so manufacturer response should always be considered. As for the video issue the fact is there is no hardware acceleration for video playback. Even CorePlayer to a degree acknowledge the issue when the will release a new version of their player which uses QTV to improve the video playback on that chipset. Now over 8000 people have signed the petition many commenting on the performance issues so to simply write all those consumers off as HTC haters is weak at best. If they hated HTC so much they would never have purchased a HTC device.
While its unlikely any reviewer will ever admit to being hasty in their reviews the fact stands that large numbers of HTC customers are experiencing issues with poor performance so clearly something went wrong when not one review I have seen actually picked up on the issue. The fact is HTC admit the Kaiser has no hardware accelerated graphics. Again some websites I am suspicious off using preproduction devices (certainly not this one) others I believe where just over eager when they got the device instead of actually using the for a month before doing a review. Maybe even the lack of a set structure for doing a review, eg compare video playback, boot up times, screen response etc.
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31/01/08 @ 15:00
Comment from: Malestrom [Visitor]
Because facts are better than theories you should check these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xeb8-m5opDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJWAu6IRe4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL8uq4FtduY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgfL227gmik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjS9zz2bww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9b1L7m7G0Y
Watch this in particular:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yv2zVRW7Y0
Cheaper phones and older ones have BETTER graphics than this brick!!! AND I have 2 TyTn II !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xeb8-m5opDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJWAu6IRe4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL8uq4FtduY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgfL227gmik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjS9zz2bww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9b1L7m7G0Y
Watch this in particular:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yv2zVRW7Y0
Cheaper phones and older ones have BETTER graphics than this brick!!! AND I have 2 TyTn II !
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